In case you’ve been affected by AI Overviews, visitors drops, or really feel unsure about search engine marketing’s future, then this episode is for you.
Search Engine Journal’s Editor-in-Chief Katie Morton sits down with development advisor and writer of “Development Memo,” Kevin Indig, to unpack the outcomes of his newest AI Overviews examine.
On this 35-minute episode, they focus on the way it impacts search, search engine marketing, and model advertising and marketing in 2025.
Editor’s notice: The next transcript has been edited calmly for readability, brevity, and adherence to our editorial pointers.
Desk of Contents
- 1. What AI Overviews Imply For Search, search engine marketing & Model Belief
- 2. What The AI Overview Examine Actually Reveals
- 3. Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
- 4. The New Position Of search engine marketing In A Altering Panorama
- 5. Reaching Folks In every single place Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
What AI Overviews Imply For Search, search engine marketing & Model Belief
Katie Morton: Hello, everyone. It’s I, Katie Morton. I’m the editor-in-chief of Search Engine Journal, and at this time I’m sitting down with Kevin Indig, who’s a development advisor to fast-growing tech firms and the writer of “Development Memo,” a incredible e-newsletter.
We syndicate it right here on Search Engine Journal, however join it instantly, too, as a result of he has content material unique to subscribers. It’s stuffed with sensible insights each marketer must know.
Kevin, thanks for making the time at this time. The examine was analyzed in March-April 2025 and revealed in Could. We’ve had time to mirror, and at this time we’ll unpack the important thing takeaways.
We’ll begin with the nuts and bolts of the examine’s background, so listeners perceive the context, after which transcend the info to discover how entrepreneurs and firms, particularly these pissed off by Google, AI Overviews, or visitors drops, can reply.
So, Kevin, are you able to summarize the examine and share the principle takeaways?
Kevin Indig: Thanks for having me on, Katie. It’s nice to be right here with you.
What The AI Overview Examine Actually Reveals
Kevin: The examine got here from a want to deeply perceive, from a qualitative perspective, how on a regular basis customers work together with AI Overviews.
In 2024, everybody was eyeing AI Overviews with curiosity, however visitors affect wasn’t important but. Then, in the beginning of 2025, all the things modified. It turned a “holy cow” second – this was actual and severe.
We requested 70 members within the U.S., throughout completely different age teams, to unravel eight duties that coated dominant consumer intents: Discovering a tax accountant, researching medical questions, procuring, and so forth.
We deliberately included queries that confirmed AI Overviews however didn’t inform members to work together with them – we wished unbiased habits.
So, in a nutshell, the three most poignant outcomes are:
1. Traditional Natural Outcomes Nonetheless Carry Weight
To start with – and that is no shock – clicks are actually uncommon when folks see AI Overviews. That’s gotten by means of to everybody by now.
And but, on the identical time, basic natural outcomes nonetheless have the vast majority of affect on folks’s completion of consumer journeys.
Let me untangle that for a second: What we discovered is that individuals get their ultimate reply – the ultimate piece of knowledge they had been got down to get – 80% of the time from basic natural outcomes. Not from AI Overviews, in order that was encouraging.
2. Excessive-High quality Clicks Occur In Excessive-Belief Moments
Clicks are taking place, however folks nonetheless click on. And every of these clicks has a lot, a lot increased high quality than, say, in 2024 or earlier than.
As a result of these clicks are to confirm whether or not the outcomes are correct, to get human enter from platforms like Reddit or YouTube, and to extend confidence in whether or not what the AI is saying is true.
And for us, which means it’s crucial to be current in these high-trust, high-risk moments. I can unpack that a little bit extra…
3. Viewers Age Shapes AI Engagement
The third end result I discovered very fascinating is that there actually is an age distinction right here. [Younger users] are way more receptive to AI solutions. They’re way more energetic on Reddit and YouTube. Whereas folks of a better age will usually simply skip the AI solutions as a result of they don’t belief them.
You wish to know who you’re speaking to, who your target market is. Ideally, what the age group is of your ICP or your target market, after which make search engine marketing selections accordingly.
Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
Katie: Thanks for that. What I’d love to speak about subsequent is branding.
I really feel like large manufacturers are a little bit safer with current developments. If you have already got recognition, you’re in a greater spot. However if you happen to’re a tiny model with no recognition, you’re actually behind the eight ball.
For the uninitiated or the uninformed, [you might wonder], why is that essential? It’s about belief.
When somebody sees your model in an AI Overview, recognition boosts belief. In the event that they click on on an AI Overview or scroll to seek out natural outcomes, they’re extra more likely to belief and click on a reputation they know. A robust model will increase your possibilities.
However even sturdy manufacturers can lose recognition. Mordy Oberstein and I discuss this lots – he’s doing branding work now. Fame is all the things.
Mordy makes use of the instance of Nike, which was as soon as ubiquitous, however has misplaced some relevance. Youthful generations aren’t as loyal or conscious of the swoosh anymore.
So, for giant manufacturers, sustaining confidence and belief is crucial. For small or new manufacturers, or manufacturers that by no means had sturdy recognition, can they nonetheless acquire traction?
Kevin: You may get traction … however it’s actually difficult.
One problem is that a number of groups have to work collectively: product, innovation, advertising and marketing, assist, provide chain. search engine marketing doesn’t management all these variables. It’s all the time been a self-discipline of suggestions, counting on others to behave.
So, you all the time had been counting on different groups, and that has 10x’d now with AI. As a result of, as you mentioned, model, model notion, and sentiment are so crucial to the way you seem in search outcomes or solutions.
And it goes again to so many alternative contact factors with a model, not simply the brand that individuals see or the promoting, but in addition the product that they use, retention, all that form of stuff.
SEOs want to point out different departments the place points lie, utilizing click-through charges, model search quantity, and engagement metrics as alerts. They have to talk the story and rally different groups.
However that usually runs into value considerations. Asking for a brand new name heart to enhance assist has large price range implications, and quantifying ROI is hard.
So, SEOs should push past the Google channel and affect firm technique. It’s extremely tough to affect.
Katie: Completely. And talking of search engine marketing being declared “lifeless,” I’ve heard that each few years in my 20 years within the trade, however that is the primary time I’ve felt a reputable menace.
search engine marketing won’t ever actually die. It’s discovery, and discovery is all the time wanted, however it’s positively altering. It was once essentially the most cost-effective advertising and marketing channel. Now, ROI is much less sure, and budgets are contracting.
However there’s a silver lining. Quite a lot of low-quality, basic content material meant simply to drive mass web page views is getting weeded out.
For instance, we used to rank for “What’s E-E-A-T?” and get tons of unqualified visitors. With AI Overviews answering these basic queries now, visitors is down, however the remaining visitors is way extra certified. That’s higher for conversions.
It’s arduous for publishers who relied on brute-force clicks. However for us, shifting away from programmatic and towards advertisers aligned with our viewers, like SaaS, has labored. The trade is altering massively.
So, what do you assume is subsequent for search engine marketing and advertising and marketing?
The New Position Of search engine marketing In A Altering Panorama
Kevin: You hit it on the top. search engine marketing is contracting; budgets are down, management confidence is down, and when folks go away, their roles usually aren’t changed. search engine marketing has died and reinvented itself many occasions.
I see that we’re utilizing plenty of search engine marketing additionally for AI visibility optimization. I do anticipate that to vary, however nevertheless you flip it, we’re in a transition interval. And the issue with transition intervals is that they’re arduous to navigate. You lose orientation, and it’s painful.
As soon as you agree at a brand new baseline, you simply run round a little bit headless, and also you attempt to discover your means. After which slowly, issues form of begin to settle again in.
And so I’m very assured that no matter we’re going to name this, we’re going to settle into a brand new baseline. It’d take some time. This isn’t going to cease within the subsequent six months – in all probability not twelve months. But it surely’s arduous to foretell when.
Primarily based on how shortly fashions enhance and the way shortly people adapt to them, that can resolve the tempo of this transition.
Nonetheless, there are additionally many alternatives in transitions. You possibly can reinvent your self. And that’s the place, as SEOs, we would lose the search engine marketing price range, however possibly we acquire some model price range, which has been a lot, a lot greater up to now.
You see firms spending thousands and thousands of {dollars} for multi-year contracts for a tiny emblem that sits someplace on a System 1 automotive. This stuff occur on a regular basis.
There’s an enormous alternative for search engine marketing to detach from that undesirable profiling as a efficiency channel – detach ourselves from being a efficiency channel, and develop into way more of a model channel, affect channel, presence channel – no matter you wish to name it.
New metrics. New levers. Deeply rooted in search engine marketing. And efficient and highly effective, however form of in a brand new design, proper? Like search engine marketing 2.0. No matter you wish to name it.
And I do agree with you. I additionally see individuals who’ve been within the sport for a very long time stepping out. Completely get that. I see younger folks dropping a little bit of confidence.
However I can even say that I would really like (however wouldn’t admit) that there’s a little bit a part of me that’s form of excited for all this modification.
As a result of it’s a chance to form of reshuffle the playing cards, discover out new stuff, possibly discover some secrets and techniques, and form of reverse engineer what’s occurring.
If you have a look at the final simply 10 days the place a number of folks and firms discovered new methods to reverse engineer what queries Gemini makes use of and ChatGPT makes use of, I’m like, man, it’s superior to see how adamant the trade works on growing the brand new playbook, dissecting how these mechanics work and LLMs work, and discovering new methods.
So, I’ve excessive confidence, and I even have plenty of empathy for all of the ache and the form of issues that this trade goes by means of. However once more, I see us popping out the opposite aspect sooner or later in like a brand new design – and with plenty of affect.
Katie Morton: I find it irresistible. I agree with the empathy as nicely. As a result of everybody in advertising and marketing, it appears, has misplaced their thoughts a little bit bit over the previous 12 months or two with these shifts in visitors.
However that Wild Wild West setting can also be actually thrilling as a result of there are going to be all of those developments.
And if persons are calm and so they persevere and so they do the work to determine these items out, both for themselves or to observe what these researchers are discovering, folks shall be okay, proper?
Kevin: We all the time are. Sorry to chop you off there, however there’s a very essential level to make right here that I didn’t make – and that’s: It’s not simply search that’s altering.
search engine marketing is on the forefront of AI. On the absolute forefront. As a result of it’s about phrases, and it’s about search, and search is form of the most important interface between AI and people proper now.
So it’s not simply search that’s altering. Advertising and marketing is totally altering. And like, all of our lives are fully altering.
Positive, it will take years to trickle by means of, possibly not even to the diploma we’ve considered it, however it’s fairly clear that AI is not less than as revolutionary because the web. Possibly even essentially the most revolutionary invention that humanity has made thus far.
So let’s not neglect: Every part is altering. It’s not simply us SEOs. It’s all of the channels. It’s advertising and marketing as a complete.
Modes and levers are disappearing, and new ones are developing. We’re feeling it deeply in search engine marketing, as being form of the entrance line of AI. However make no mistake, it will trickle by means of to all of the paid channels, product, all the things.
All people is in a state of shock proper now, making an attempt to determine what the brand new branches are to carry on to after which construct on high of. Advertising and marketing as we all know it’s over. LLMs are remodeling how they attain us.
Katie: This impacts each channel. At SEJ, we’ve collapsed editorial and advertising and marketing into one built-in staff. It was once search engine marketing and editorial right here, advertising and marketing over there, and nobody actually talked. That doesn’t work anymore.
Now, all the things is extra cohesive and centered on the ICP and conversion. It’s higher for patrons and for groups.
Kevin: 100%. I speak to all my shoppers about this. search engine marketing and paid search ought to’ve all the time been related, however they had been siloed, identical with product, e mail, social, and so forth.
I imply, look: Realistically and ideally, search engine marketing and paid (or paid search) have all the time been related on the hip. However I’ll let you know, not less than throughout nearly all the businesses that I’ve labored with, they had been siloed.
The identical exists with all these different groups, like product advertising and marketing or social media, conversion, and e mail – all that form of stuff.
Now’s the time to tear off the band-aid. There will be small groups of possibly an search engine marketing, an editor, an e mail particular person, a social particular person, and possibly a really technical one who can shortly prototype new apps, applications, or instruments.
The largest problem now could be inner purple tape. AI is a velocity catalyst, however firms’ previous workflows sluggish them down. Huge organizations are caught.
I’m urging shoppers to type these multi-disciplinary items below one supervisor, one roof, one mission.
Reaching Folks In every single place Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
Katie: Superior. One final level: different platforms. For too lengthy, folks relied too closely on Google. Diversifying visitors sources – adverts, social, newsletters – is now important. Holistic advertising and marketing is the long run. What are you seeing [that is] working proper now?
Typically talking, the place do folks stay today? The place are people hanging out, and the place do we discover them? What are the success metrics that you just’re seeing?
Kevin: The brief reply is: In every single place.
Katie: Good luck, everybody. Okay, good night time. That’s the present!
Kevin: No, however the actuality is, in every single place. There’s this fascinating paradox. I have to coin this time period one way or the other, however this fascinating paradox that mainly all of the social networks are rising. And new ones are popping up, proper? TikTok – I imply, it’s not that new anymore, however it’s nonetheless rising. Reddit is changing into way more of a family identify now.
And so that you ask your self, what offers? Positive, linear TV’s down, okay. However how is that this attainable? And the fact is: Persons are on-line on a regular basis – talking for a pal – and so they use plenty of platforms on the identical time.
So, one of the best groups, or the businesses which can be making a huge impact, they’ve this encompass sound impact that they’re creating, the place they’re current in plenty of locations. They have interaction authentically, say, on Reddit.
When good firms have interaction on Reddit, it doesn’t really feel like advertising and marketing. It’s not advertising and marketing, actually. It’s way more like making an attempt to be useful, extra like buyer assist or success.
That’s why these persons are typically very well-suited to work together on Reddit. They really add worth. They’re actually a part of the dialog.
Manufacturers are repurposing their content material in a really considerate and high-fidelity means, the place possibly they create a weblog article, flip it right into a video, flip it into clips, which then flip into questions they reply on Reddit. There’s this sort of in every single place technique. AI actually helps with that.
And I can even say it’s sometimes not firms which can be getting caught on the quantification-of-impact query. The truth is that steering a corporation or an organization towards that multi-channel impact – or that encompass sound impact – takes a swing.
It takes a frontrunner to say, “Okay, we’re going to spend some cash and take six months, and we’re going to spend money on Reddit and YouTube, and we’re going to attend for the outcomes to return in. We’re not going to take a seat there daily refreshing the dashboard asking, ‘What number of gross sales have we generated but?’”
It takes a little bit of a swing. And so it’s defining for this period, for this transition interval, the place it’s a lot more durable to challenge and forecast the place you’re going to land with a few of these issues.
It takes judgment and style and a sure diploma of risk-taking to spend money on these channels and capabilities, and being snug, or not less than okay, with ready for a number of the outcomes to return in and having the ability to measure them later.
I’m not saying it is best to wait a 12 months or two. However give it two quarters, possibly three quarters, and experiment with a few of these channels.
So, that’s the place persons are – persons are in every single place. It’s not sufficient to simply have one shot at one platform. It’s good to be form of in every single place.
And repurposing might help. Utilizing AI with a few of these issues helps. However on the finish of the day, it’s worthwhile to take a swing.
Katie: Very sensible, Kevin. A type of issues that I discovered extremely annoying is that you may run these experiments, and also you’re going to attend in your outcomes, after which earlier than your experiment is even carried out, all the things’s modified once more.
Kevin: Precisely. Predictable strategies are gone. You’re taking swings, and a few gained’t join as a result of circumstances change. One of the best leaders, one of the best groups – plenty of occasions, they take plenty of swings.
As a result of a few of these swings will hit full pressure, and it’s form of a ability to construct.
Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree extra. We’ve carried out month-to-month experiments at SEJ. Each division runs one. It might be structure, content material kind … fixed iteration. I inform the staff: delicate knees. Be able to shift. There’s no “set it and neglect it” anymore.
Kevin: Sure, sure. On level. Permit folks to fail. One other good ability is having the ability to take significant dangers. I’m not saying wager the farm, however as a frontrunner, if you wish to encourage your folks to take dangers, allow them to.
Once more, that doesn’t imply to blindly shoot in all instructions. You wish to have some thought behind that, some judgment. You wish to be crucial. However there needs to be a degree at which you let go.
Katie: That could be a actually good level. We tie experiments to north-star metrics. For us, one is e-newsletter subscriptions, so most of our experiments assist that. We’ve seen nice success, not all the time in uncooked visitors, however in conversions and income.
Kevin: Wonderful. Congratulations on that.
Katie: Thanks. All proper, Kevin, any parting remarks earlier than we head out?
Kevin: I’m listening to plenty of very involved SEOs. Involved about “How do I inform this story?” or “How do I handle my boss or management on this time the place visitors is down?”
I wish to ship out some braveness. This is likely one of the largest shifts I’ve lived by means of in my life. I’d wager it’s in all probability the identical for many, if not all, of the viewers.
So, that is possibly the time to make some modifications and have some grace about discovering a brand new playbook.
I’m seeing plenty of SEOs very scared about this. I get the preliminary worry. However once more, that is such a considerable, basic change. It’s okay for issues to look completely different. It’s okay for you to not have the reply proper now. Be sincere with management. Push again if wanted.
Katie: Concentrate on new metrics, not simply UVs or PVs, however ones that connect with enterprise objectives. That’s the place the story of success shall be informed.
Kevin: Precisely.
Katie: Thanks once more, Kevin. The place can folks discover you?
Kevin: growthmemo.com, or simply seek for “Development Memo.” That’s my primary hub.
Katie: Superior. We’re at searchenginejournal.com. See you subsequent time!
Kevin: Thanks for having me.
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Featured Picture: Paulo Bobita/Search Engine Journal
