AMANDA KERSEY: Welcome to HBR On Management, case research and conversations with the world’s prime enterprise and administration consultants—hand-selected that can assist you unlock the perfect in these round you.
I’m HBR senior editor and producer Amanda Kersey.
Serving on a board can develop your affect, strengthen your management abilities, and even open doorways to greater alternatives. However getting that first seat—and determining the best way to contribute when you’re there—can really feel daunting.
On this episode of Girls at Work, you’ll hear from eight ladies about how they stepped onto boards, what they realized within the course of, and the way the expertise formed their careers. You’ll additionally get perspective from Ellen Zane, the previous CEO of Tufts Medical Heart, who now sits on a number of boards.
Right here’s host Amy Bernstein.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Have you ever ever considered becoming a member of a board? Analysis suggests ladies’s presence improves the selections these teams make and, in flip, improves monetary efficiency. Being on a company board offers you a say in how the enterprise is run, together with the way it treats staff and prospects. When you’re a senior govt, expertise on a public or a personal firm board boosts your CEO eligibility, if that’s a objective of yours. Being on a non-profit board is the place many administrators get their begin or keep. It’s an opportunity to stretch your thoughts, your abilities, your community. It’s a approach to have an effect in your neighborhood or your alma mater or your business.
However perhaps you haven’t thought of serving, as a result of it feels like one other suck in your time, or the advantages aren’t clear, otherwise you have been ready for retirement, otherwise you simply didn’t know sufficient to dive in—or nobody requested you. Nicely, let’s take a look at these assumptions and fill in some gaps. Eight ladies volunteered to inform us how they landed a board seat, gained confidence there, and grew personally and professionally. I hope their views spherical out your sense of what the work is and that they encourage you to eventually attempt it for your self. And when you’re doubting your {qualifications}, Lani Hollander, certainly one of our volunteers, will let you know, “Simply don’t.”
LANI HOLLANDER: I believe particularly for getting began with a smaller non-profit board, the principle factor that issues, actually, is ardour and curiosity.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ardour and curiosity is how, in 2019, Lani received invited to affix a board, though networking was key and getting a grasp’s in non-profit administration should have given her a leg up. The invitation got here from the chief director of a humanitarian group in Thailand whom she’d recognized for a number of years. Again in 2015, Lani labored for a special humanitarian group, and the 2 partnered on programming. They received alongside so nicely that after Lani left that job, they saved in contact by means of common calls. Throughout a kind of calls—
LANI HOLLANDER: It grew to become obvious that their board wanted some, some new individuals to affix, that they have been seeking to recruit. It actually felt pure for me to become involved, And I felt that I had abilities, particularly working within the non-profit sector for, for a decade at that time, particularly inside small non-profits, like non-profits with, ah, $300,000 of annual income or much less. I felt that I may contribute as a board member.
AMY BERNSTEIN: The function suited her. She went from taking part in conferences to getting ready the agendas to suggesting the group re-elect officers to changing into its chair.
LANI HOLLANDER: I all the time felt actually included. I all the time felt like I used to be in a position to specific my opinion or make a degree. And there was extremely good rapport and communication amongst everybody. And so, I believe that that created an area for individuals to point out up as themselves, to speak with out worry of judgment, to be compassionate, and to create space for each other.
AMY BERNSTEIN: She stepped down on the finish of 2022.
LANI HOLLANDER: And that’s principally simply because I work, uh, my life has modified so much, I received married, I grew to become a mother. My daughter simply turned two. So, it’s actually simply extra of like a private capability factor.
AMY BERNSTEIN: For now, she retains an inventory of non-profits to method when she’s prepared to leap again in.
You’re listening to Girls at Work from Harvard Enterprise Overview. I’m Amy Bernstein. I’m additionally contemplating leaping again in. About 20 years in the past, I joined the board of a non-profit ladies’s journalism group, and some years later, I led the board of a good friend’s non-profit. The 2 organizations couldn’t have been extra completely different, and their conferences couldn’t have been extra completely different. However in each circumstances, I used to be flying completely blind. I didn’t know the foundations, and I wasn’t certain what was anticipated of me. Getting on top of things was actually laborious and so humbling.
Now, all these years later, I’ve had a few many years extra expertise, I’ve been in senior management roles, I’ve led massive groups in difficult tasks, and I’ve been desirous about boards once more. And if I be part of one other board, yeah, I’ll positively be so much higher ready, partly due to that have and partly due to this episode.
Ellen Zane is right here with me to provide context and extra perception as we hear from these eight volunteers. In her final day job, she was CEO of Tufts Medical Heart, a place she held till she retired in 2011, solely to ramp up her profession—on boards. Proper now, she’s on many. They’re a mixture of public, personal, personal fairness, and not-for-profit. And on prime of all that, she directs the Girls on Boards program inside Harvard’s Faculty of Public Well being. That program prepares executives, and never simply these from healthcare, to develop into administrators themselves.
So, Ellen, thanks a lot for being with us at the moment.
ELLEN ZANE: Thanks for inviting me.
AMY BERNSTEIN: How did you get into the entire board enterprise?
ELLEN ZANE: A number of it’s serendipity.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
ELLEN ZANE: After I introduced that I used to be stepping down because the CEO at Tufts Medical Heart, shockingly and unexpectedly, my cellphone began to ring.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ha.
ELLEN ZANE: And there have been a whole lot of boards on the lookout for ladies to imagine within the company board space however all boards a place. Healthcare is such a big sector. Whether or not it’s life sciences or healthcare provision insurance coverage expertise, medical expertise, prescription drugs. So, there have been many, many alternatives; and the reality is, uh, my first six months after I stepped down, I used to be flying across the nation, interviewing these firms, telling all of them, I can’t do all of it. Nevertheless it turned out to be an unbelievable alternative as a result of there’s a enormous want.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, you already know, it was the serendipity of your stepping down as CEO of Tufts Medical Heart, which implies that you have been already very outstanding in your discipline. Why did it take the set off of your retirement from Tufts?
ELLEN ZANE: Initially, I used to be on one public firm board whereas I used to be working, however there are guidelines by means of the SEC and different areas the place sometimes full-time executives don’t sit on multiple for-profit board. So, when you step down, the idea is that you’ve got extra time. So, once you step down, that’s after they come calling, sometimes, not less than on the for-profit facet.
AMY BERNSTEIN: On the for-profit facet. And also you had served on a non-profit board earlier than.
ELLEN ZANE: A number of. I had been on college boards, uh, and another non-profits as nicely, together with the hospital on the campus of the Nationwide Institutes of Well being in Washington.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Now, did you notice once you joined these boards that they have been important for steps to stepping into the company board work?
ELLEN ZANE: When you ask a recruiter, they usually say that sitting on a not-for-profit board shouldn’t be a precursor for sitting on a for-profit board. Others of us, who’ve finished each, consider that it’s. As a result of whereas it’s a special type of governance, interacting with administration, interacting with different board members, interacting on monetary points, personnel points, strategic points, you already know what the content material areas are, you may have some fundamental floor guidelines. For instance, the distinction between the governance of a company and the operations of an org.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: As they are saying, “Noses in, however fingers out,” on the board facet. So put your nostril in so that you be taught and perceive the best way to govern; however by way of the day-to-day operations and the administration, that’s as much as administration. When you’re on a board, you don’t try this anymore.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, so that you be taught what traces you possibly can and…
AMY AND ELLEN TOGETHER: …can not cross.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You recognize, earlier than we go any additional, let’s do kind of a 101 on boards. Why do they even exist?
ELLEN ZANE: As a result of there’s a distinction between the governance of a company and the oversight and governance of the belongings, whether or not they’re charitable belongings or monetary belongings. That’s the reason boards exist, to supervise that in order that administration doesn’t have unique rights to make use of these belongings. So, boards are governance, whereas administration is operations and execution. So, it’s actually oversight of some sort of belongings.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Boards have a selected set of capabilities, although, and so they have committees about finance and committees about compensation. Speak to us a bit of bit about how boards truly operate.
ELLEN ZANE: What all of them have in widespread is often, the primary duty is, the hiring and firing of the CEO. And when push involves shove, it comes right down to that. However they produce other oversight. They’ve technique obligations by way of weighing in on that, audit obligations, compliance obligations for the right compliance of the group, notably boards having to do with monetary companies. Uh, most for-profit boards have, for committees they’ve audit, nomination and governance committees, and the third is compensation. They’ll have another committees, maybe a finance committee, maybe a human sources committee, however the principle threads that you just see in nearly all boards are the audit, nomination and governance, and compensation.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And nomination is actually in regards to the nomination of the CEO, proper?
ELLEN ZANE: No, that’s often in regards to the nomination of individuals on the board.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, so different board members.
ELLEN ZANE: And who sits on what committees …
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, I see.
ELLEN ZANE: … of, of different board members.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, you’re self-governing.
ELLEN ZANE: You self-govern, that’s proper.
AMY BERNSTEIN: (laughing)
ELLEN ZANE: And also you even give your self pay raises. That’s the opposite factor you do. (laughing)
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, superior. (laughing)
The finance committee is the place Patti Neuhold-Ravikumar began on every of the 5 non-profit boards she served on whereas she was president of the College of Central Oklahoma. She’d been the college’s CFO and, earlier than that, its affiliate VP for planning and funds. And so naturally, the regional meals financial institution and chamber of commerce and others needed her overseeing their cash.
PATTI NEUHOLD-RAVIKUMAR: And I’m high-quality serving on a finance committee, however I wish to transfer round after I’m on the board. I don’t wish to be pigeonholed, proper? So, if one other alternative comes up on the event committee or on the governance committee, I ask to be moved to these locations in order that, primary, I can provide my expertise and experience to completely different areas, after which quantity two, in order that I can get that have in return. The following board I could serve on, I could not serve on the finance committee in any respect. Finance was a stepping stone for me, it was not a vacation spot. However you, generally, you need to depend on, on what you may have till you possibly can create what you wish to be or the place you wish to go.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And if you wish to keep inside your specialty however department out into unfamiliar industries, that’s an choice too. For example, Jolene Morse has a doctorate in threat administration, and she or he’s, no shock, on the danger committees for 2 boards. One’s for a public hospital, and the opposite’s for an orthotic and prosthetic affiliation. So, each in healthcare, an business she had zero skilled expertise in earlier than scoring these seats in 2020.
JOLENE MORSE: What I actually needed to do with a board place was frequently be taught, problem my very own mind-set. So, I might take a look on the place descriptions and say, Hm, no, that doesn’t truly sound like me. Or, Oh, that’s one thing that I is likely to be concerned about. So, I’d actually kind of finished a whole lot of prep work main as much as truly beginning to apply to essentially slender down the place I assumed worth proposition may very well be.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right here’s how she positioned herself through the interviews.
JOLENE MORSE: It was at a time the place threat was kind of front-of-mind for lots of people, however they didn’t have a depth of information. So, for me, it was actually saying, “You recognize, threat is one thing that I’m fairly obsessed with, however I believe it will get undersold as a result of individuals do it as a result of they suppose they need to somewhat than, How can this add worth to my technique?” So, for me, it was actually bringing a special perspective to the dialog round that.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Ellen, I listened to Jolene’s story, and I say to myself, Actually? You simply kind of resolve you wish to be part of a selected board, and also you get on the board? Is that the way it works?
ELLEN ZANE: No.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay.
ELLEN ZANE: (laughing) It’s, it isn’t. Firstly, all of us have to recollect, it isn’t about what we wish, per se.It’s about what the boards want.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: And I believe lots of people who want board service give it some thought in reverse, they give thought to what they want.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: And we have to perceive and be affected person, the place boards have alternatives that match what we wish. However at the beginning, boards are going to do what they should do for themselves.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, who makes the match?
ELLEN ZANE: It’s very fascinating. When you ask a board recruiter, and so they’re on the market—when you ask them, they’ll even let you know that no more than 35% of all seats which can be given in boards come by means of a recruiter. Whether or not it’s not-for-profit or for-profit, it’s sometimes who you already know, and networking is necessary.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: And I all the time inform individuals, “You by no means know who you’re sitting subsequent to at a breakfast on an airplane.” That’s how this occurs, the place somebody is aware of you and somebody is aware of a bit about your background and the skillset and the judgment that you’ve got. And somebody says, “This is likely to be match for a specific group or firm.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s how Anna Manning got here to the board of the elementary college linked to her church. Somebody knew she was a lawyer, reasoned she had sound judgment, and badgered her till she signed on. Seven years later, she’s all in because the committee chair for curriculum and requirements.
ANNA MANNING: However after I first began on the varsity board, I knew nothing about kids’s training and simply the quantity of lingo and acronyms. I used to be a bit extra reticent about coming ahead and saying, “Wait a minute. Like, why are you doing it like that? What does that even imply?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Then, in her day job, she moved into a method function that fortuitously let her see its board of administrators in motion.
ANNA MANNING: A number of them have been on boards for years, like boards of big banks, and I noticed individuals coming from fully completely different sectors, who would say, “Wait. What? You recognize, you need to be desirous about this from this lens, or you need to be desirous about it from that lens.” Or they’d cease the entire assembly and say, “Sorry. What does TFG imply?” And I used to be like, Oh, yeah. I can try this, too. And I simply began being much more curious and much more persistent with the issues that I might ask and kind of the road of inquiries that I might take. And after I truly did that, I discovered it by no means actually let me down.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ellen, you already know, Anna, Anna’s expertise is one that each novice has. The foundations are bizarre, they’re not intuitive. I had that have. It’s as if there’s not on-ramp into these conversations. You should hear from a whole lot of ladies in your work with the Faculty of Public Well being. What questions come up, and what do you inform ladies who’re new to this entire world?
ELLEN ZANE: I do get the query usually about when to talk up and when to not and the best way to choose that and kit it. It’s an EQ talent; and understanding that it’s best to ask questions, and there’s no query that’s too small.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And you’ve got a duty to deeply perceive what’s occurring.
ELLEN ZANE: To deeply perceive. Some questions, nevertheless, are higher offline as a result of it could take individuals down a rabbit gap that they don’t wish to go in in the midst of a board assembly. It’s studying the room and understanding when it’s necessary to talk up and insert your self into the dialog and when it’s not.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. I imply, am I including, am I pushing the dialog ahead, or am I simply re-repeating what others are saying, saying the apparent?
ELLEN ZANE: Repeating myself.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Talking up doesn’t assure you’ll be heard. Even once you’re technically the chief, which caught Lindsay Schwartz off guard. She’s been on the board of administrators for the Heart for Excellence in Assisted Residing for 10 years and was its chair for seven.
LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: My vice-chair was a male, the quick previous chair was a male, and at one level, we had an govt director who was a male, and it was laborious to get a phrase in. And I, there have been just a few occasions the place I used to be like, “I’ve one thing to say. You all have to hear.” And after I stated that, I believe that was like a, Oh, okay, we’re not giving her house to speak. And I additionally simply type of took over going by means of the agenda and, you already know, ensuring everybody was heard. That was one thing that was actually necessary to me.
AMY BERNSTEIN: For a lot of ladies, Lindsay says, there’s one other facet of studying the room: watching your tone.
LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: I might all the time suppose, “Oh, do I sound like a bitch?” after I’m being assertive. And I believe I might simply whisper to myself, “Don’t fear about that, and if somebody thinks you’re, you’re not, or who cares?” (laughing) I imply, I’ve like a extremely good therapist that was like, “You must communicate up, and also you’re not, you’re not being a bitch.” And like, we might speak about among the issues that have been occurring or the way in which I used to be handled.
And I additionally, one of many issues that I believe is so necessary is discovering a mentor. We had an unbelievable board chair, Pat Giorgio, and having her too and simply reaching out to her after I wanted, however I might all the time joke together with her, I’d be like, “I’m all the time considering, what would Pat do?” As a result of I noticed her in a vote that nobody needed to be the individual to do the movement on. It was only a very politically charged vote and movement, and, and she or he handed over to vice chair, and she or he made the movement. In seeing that, and I used to be like, Nicely, I don’t suppose she’s performing like a bitch. She’s, you already know, taking, taking lead, she’s being a pacesetter, she’s doing laborious issues.
And I believe it was that and having my therapist, too, and simply realizing, you already know, not everybody goes to love what you need to say or agree with it, and it doesn’t imply you’re mistaken, and it won’t imply that they’re mistaken, however I’d fear about that at first.
AMY BERNSTEIN: This kind of self-monitoring is widespread, together with amongst administrators of public firms. After interviewing 43 of them, researchers Tiffany Trzebiatowski, Courtney McCluney, and Morela Hernandez describe their findings in an article referred to as How Girls on Boards Navigate the “Heat-Competence” Line, the road being that delicate steadiness of empathy and directness that individuals anticipate from us. Navigating it turns into ever extra delicate once you see these individuals quarterly when the stakes are all the time excessive. This is the reason ladies intentionally pose concepts as questions, like, “I ponder what would occur if …” Softly, politely. It’s why they slip of their credentials. It’s why they make an actual effort to get to know different members personally, so after they disagree with them throughout a gathering, the problem doesn’t really feel so threatening.
As board president of Alaska Dance Theater, Lori Moore deploys one other of the ways, ready to weigh in on a serious determination till everybody else has.
LORI MOORE: It’s not nice to be the one type of urgent your opinion. I wish to hear all people within the room, and if I give my opinion first, generally I don’t get the entire info, or I don’t get all people collaborating inside the room. So, in these sorts of conditions, what I’ll do is I’ll current the information actually, actually flat, you already know, in a really assured method, after which actually encourage different individuals to leap in and be extra assertive about their opinion. After which I can come over prime and collate all of these opinions into a real determination.
It’s truly helped to be on a board as a result of I’ve been in a position to follow other ways of tackling the competence-versus-warmth sort of dynamic. As any person that works in expertise, I make that calculation on a regular basis. And generally what I’ve discovered that bleeds into my work life, too It’s helped me determine methods to be extra assertive with out coming over as dominant or not a group participant.
AMY BERNSTEIN: One of many causes ladies resort to those ways is there’s no onboarding that explains what the norms and expectations are. That’s the place Anna was in when she joined the elementary college board.
ANNA MANNING: It was type of like, “Throw you in, right here’s the agenda for the assembly, right here’s the papers, go.” (chuckle)
AMY BERNSTEIN: If you end up in an analogous place, ask the chair so as to enter that first assembly clear on how and when to contribute. Really, finest follow, Ellen says, is to suss out the tradition earlier than assuming the function.
ELLEN ZANE: It’s your job to know that tradition, each inside the board and, uh, inside the administration group and the board’s relationship to the administration group. And by speaking to members of administration and speaking to our colleagues on the board, and if their tales are related, it’s a greater shot than if they’re all speaking in a different way, and also you suppose you’re getting the corporate line. You by no means know every thing, but it surely’s actually necessary to do your homework, as a result of if the tradition isn’t good, you gained’t have time on that, on that board.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, it’s completely okay to name up different board members and, and introduce your self and say, “I’ve been provided a seat on the board. I’d like to get your tackle how this board operates?”
ELLEN ZANE: It’s completely okay to talk to whomever it’s who’s recruiting you, the board chair, head of nominations or governance, and say, “I wish to discuss with different individuals on the board.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ah, and that individual will make connections for you.
ELLEN ZANE: That’s the way it ought to work. In the event that they’re reticent, it’s a pink flag.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Proper. OK, that’s glorious perception. So, any board is the massive leagues, any board. These are individuals who have a whole lot of expertise, who’re used to the, type of, infighting, who know the best way to work the dynamics. What do I have to know, how do I equip myself to be a completely taking part member of a board, if I’ve by no means been on a board earlier than, given that everybody else appears to know all of the unwritten guidelines?
ELLEN ZANE: It is very important do your homework.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: And to be ready in a … Each board, for-profit, not-for-profit, have board books, they’ve supplies that should be learn, and you should come ready. You actually need to do your homework, not solely in regards to the materials being mentioned on the board, however in regards to the group, in regards to the administration group, and about your colleagues on the board. Know who they’re and know what their backgrounds are. And perceive that you’re there since you deliver one thing. And what’s it we search for in a board member principally? It’s their judgment. So, I’ve been on a board of a semiconductor firm, and I knew zero about semiconductors, and I instructed the CEO that. And he stated to me, “Ellen, I’ve extra engineers than you possibly can depend. What I want is somebody who has logic, who’s run a big group and understands the considering that I’m going by means of when I’ve to make a troublesome determination, versus somebody who doesn’t have a whole lot of staff. So, what you deliver, proper now, is somebody who’s run a company, and I want that now for this board.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Talking of homework, Adelle Wapnick did a ton of it after signing on to the board of a basis. It’s referred to as Surgeons for Little Lives, and she or he truly named it as a favor for a household good friend. She was nonetheless in promoting then, and the pediatric-surgeon founders appreciated her strategic considering a lot that they invited her to affix them.
ADELLE WAPNICK: And so I stated, “Sure, I’ve received an absolute pleasure to take action.” So, I felt like I used to be a part of the founding, however I wasn’t actually. The surgeons have been those that did the bit, however all the time conscious that they actually did want lay individuals, et cetera, as a result of they, you already know, their world may be very particular and fairly specialised.
AMY BERNSTEIN: However then, she needed to develop into proficient in that particular specialised world of kids’s emergency care for 2 causes, in order that she may knowledgeably market and fund-raise to the general public, and in order that she may develop her affect internally with a board that has now grown to 10 members.
ADELLE WAPNICK: I learn a hell of so much. I’ve realized a lot about our nation and what’s taking place and what we face in our public methods, whether or not it’s training, well being. Additionally, not solely did I perceive extra in regards to the medical discipline, however I additionally put a whole lot of effort into understanding how NGOs function, how individuals have been doing and the way they received their notions and the way they linked with their donors, et cetera. So sure, a whole lot of studying, after which the one surgeon that’s on our board, he was a neighbor of mine down the street, and we might spend hours strolling and speaking. So, I believe I’ve received a whole lot of perception by means of the conversations that I had extra informally with him truly than a structured type of studying course of.
AMY BERNSTEIN: One other a part of being a completely taking part member of a board, Anna found, is piecing collectively the total image of a battle or proposal. From her first board assembly, she sensed that to know one thing complicated, she couldn’t merely depend on the individuals who’d come earlier than the board to current.
ANNA MANNING: And generally, individuals frankly suppose since you’re on a board, you’re robotically a bit scary, so I’ve made a degree of constructing good relationships with employees all through the varsity. I’ll ensure that not less than in the future and often a few different half-days inside the 12 months, I’m current in class. And so I can truly simply say to the English trainer, “We’ve heard in our assembly that this specific studying scheme goes very well. Are you able to inform me what you consider that?” And so they’ll say, “Oh, to be sincere, I don’t suppose it’s going that nicely. I believe we have to do a bit extra coaching, and I should be supported to try this.”
So then, I can return and say, “Mmm, I’ve spoken to the English lead. That is what she thinks we want. How can we make that occur?” Then I can make sure that going again into college that that really does occur, after which I can have a look at the information down the road and say, Did that really work? Was that really helpful? Having these completely different contacts inside the group that you’ve got the ear of or you possibly can hearken to them and be curious, and perhaps you’ll by no means have the total image, proper, However you possibly can not less than begin to get beneath the pores and skin of, Is what I’m being instructed proper? Does it stack up?
AMY BERNSTEIN: This nosing round that Anna does exemplifies the autonomy and rationality that set ladies aside, in response to two professors who research company technique. When Margarethe Wiersema and Louise Mors interviewed administrators of publicly traded firms, these are the feedback they heard time and again, and I’m going to cite some from an article they wrote. Girls present up “well-prepared and anxious about accountability.” Girls aren’t shy about acknowledging what they don’t know. Girls “ask in-depth questions.” Girls modulate competitiveness. These behaviors allow boardroom discussions which can be extra nuanced and deeper.” One other notable remark from Margarethe and Louise: “Girls look like much less nervous about how they’re perceived and fewer more likely to adhere to board norms. As an alternative, they need the board to make the very best selections, interval.” So, know the norms, however know that deviating from them can generally be an ideal flex.
How a lot time does serving on a board take up? There’s an actual vary.
ADELLE WAPNICK: I in all probability spend a couple of day a month if I’ve to collate all of the hours.
ANNA MANNING: Two working weeks, however usually, stuff’s finished within the evenings, it’s finished within the morning earlier than work, or it’s finished at weekends.
LANI HOLLANDER: I believe that perhaps after I began, I used to be working about an hour per week, most. However when it was excessive, and I received actually concerned, it was perhaps three hours per week.
PATTI NEUHOLD-RAVIKUMAR: So, if I’m on 5 boards, I’ve accepted the duty of being in 5 locations in some unspecified time in the future through the month. I’ve additionally dedicated to the drive time to get there, so though the assembly may need solely been an hour, it would’ve solely been two hours, it was half-hour there and half-hour again.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right here’s a brand new voice, Amber Corridor.
AMBER HALL: After I set out just a few years in the past to say, in some unspecified time in the future, I wish to be part of company boards, I knew that I must do the issues forward that, proper, to get me board prepared.
AMY BERNSTEIN: She leads product design and improvement at her firm, and she or he’s on the board of her graduate college program at Northwestern.
AMBER HALL: We meet twice a 12 months. The conferences are half-day, after which there’s often a lunch element with college students to meet-and-greet. There actually is not any required in-between, however there have been initiatives which have come up on account of the dialog within the assembly, the place myself or different board members have raised their hand to say, “Hey, I’m prepared to satisfy moreover to provide perspective and suggestions on content material.” And so, you possibly can see within the roughly 18 months suggestions that I’ve offered or others have offered as, as now woven in right into a syllabus or straight informs even the case research, uh, which can be being introduced in. So, I might say I believe to really drive affect, you already know, you possible are to contribute in some further methods.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ellen, Amber talked about that, from what she’s seen, to drive affect, you’ve received to do much more than the baseline requirement, proper?
ELLEN ZANE: Mm-hmm.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, how do you get a practical sense of the effort and time concerned in being on a board, the dedication? Is it so simple as asking the recruiter?
ELLEN ZANE: The recruiters gained’t know.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
ELLEN ZANE: The recruiters will say to you, if there’s a recruiter, uh, they’ll say to you, “It’s 4 conferences a 12 months. It’s a day-and-a-half, and also you fly to no matter place, and that’s the place you go.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper, proper.
ELLEN ZANE: Or Zoom, they do a whole lot of Zoom now.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Zoom should make, make all of it a lot simpler.
ELLEN ZANE: It does. I’ve to say most boards now, for-profit and not-for-profit, do a whole lot of their board conferences or committee conferences by Zoom. However you should ask within the firm what number of committee assembly they are-are, is it the identical time because the board assembly, or is it at a special time? Is it reside or is it digital? And sometimes, what has been the dedication for director over the course of the previous 12 months or so? On the not-for-profit facet, I’ve discovered that the time dedication can nearly be limitless.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
ELLEN ZANE: As organizations, they are typically extra needy …
AMY BERNSTEIN: Sure.
ELLEN ZANE: … than for-profit boards, who’ve soccer fields of people who find themselves, who’re accountable of their job to cope with a whole lot of issues. Whereas on not-for-profit boards, they appear to their trustees or administrators to have enter on many extra day-to-day points. And if there’s an issue, if the roof falls off, it could actually suck a whole lot of air out of the room. And unexpectedly, you may have much more conferences than you ever thought you’ll have.
AMY BERNSTEIN: However the dedication is greater than the assembly. There’s all of the prep, as nicely.
ELLEN ZANE: There’s prep, after which there’s dialog. So let’s say a not-for-profit is seeking to purchase a brand new constructing or to develop their group. There’s points about the true property, in regards to the tax on that actual property, about what would go into the constructing, what’s the technique for it. So, it tends to creep up.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Are you able to set a boundary?
ELLEN ZANE: Sometimes, no.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Huh.
ELLEN ZANE: You’ll be able to’t. If you wish to be on that board, it’s the hand you’re dealt. And I’ve seen conditions the place individuals say, “I simply don’t need to the bandwidth to do that proper now.” It doesn’t occur as usually as individuals desirous to make a distinction and desirous to attempt to see it by means of if there’s a troublesome or thorny situation occurring for the time being.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Solely one of many ladies we’ve heard from is paid for her board work. The remainder are volunteers. That one girl is Jolene, who will get between $10,000 and $15,000 Australian {Dollars} yearly, relying on what number of conferences there are that 12 months.
JOLENE MORSE: Having that little little bit of, you already know, compensation, it makes it, you already know, when you’re having a tough day (chuckle), and also you’ve simply had a extremely, actually busy day, and also you’ve received to take a seat by means of a four-hour board assembly, generally, it simply offers you that little bit of additional motivation that you just want. (chuckle)
AMY BERNSTEIN: Service might be not directly profitable, although. For Lindsay, her free facet gig opened up a money-making one, consulting.
LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: The publicity I’ve had and the skilled improvement and the connections I’ve made actually type of set me up for achievement with with the ability to seek the advice of. And in order that, I believe, might be greater than any sum of money can assist with.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Amber, who’s on the board of the grad college program, hopes her involvement may place her to get a future gig as an adjunct lecturer, and hey, perhaps these connections will assist her develop her profession in different methods.
AMBER HALL: So, my, my community, simply from a who I do know throughout business, is broader. There are those who work at among the greatest firms, greatest names culturally at the moment on that board, not that I’ve essentially cultivated particular person relationships, however simply having them at my community norms, any person with the ability to attain out is nice.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ellen, the second of the provide, is that like a suggestion for a job? Do they are saying, “Right here’s the job, right here’s the compensation?”
ELLEN ZANE: They do, roughly, undergo a time period sheet. They are saying to you, “These are the 4 conferences we’re going to have this 12 months. First, inform us, are you obtainable?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ah.
ELLEN ZANE: As a result of if these dates don’t match, the usually is a killer.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
ELLEN ZANE: After which they’ll say, “That is your compensation,” if it’s a for-profit board, after which they’ll say, “We’d such as you to take a seat on the audit committee or the human sources committee. Does that match with what you wish to do?” So it very a lot is a little bit of a negotiation, apart from the compensation. Nobody negotiates their very own bundle.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Nicely, so the comp isn’t negotiable, and the calendar isn’t negotiable…
ELLEN ZANE: Appropriate.
AMY BERNSTEIN: …what’s negotiable?
ELLEN ZANE: Virtually nothing. (chuckle)
AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay.
ELLEN ZANE: I stated to 1 board that I’m on, “I’m not going to fly across the nation in coach. I’m too outdated, I’m not going to try this anymore. I solely go top notch. Take it or depart it.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ah.
ELLEN ZANE: So, so you possibly can negotiate on the fringes like that …
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
ELLEN ZANE: … however usually, you don’t negotiate your compensation in any respect, and also you don’t negotiate the dates.
AMY BERNSTEIN: God, I so stay up for the day after I can look somebody within the eye and say, “I can not fly coach.”
ELLEN ZANE: (laughing)
AMY BERNSTEIN: And have them not burst into laughter.
ELLEN ZANE: Yeah. (laughing)
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, um … For people who find themselves becoming a member of non-profit boards, we, we already know that they’re definitely not getting wealthy doing it. However in addition they tackle some dangers.
ELLEN ZANE: Appropriate.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So what dangers are they taking up?
ELLEN ZANE: So, anyone can sue anyone over something. Whether or not it’s reputable or not is a special query.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
ELLEN ZANE: However board members of not-for-profits might be sued. I used to be in a state of affairs myself on a college board the place we felt on a sub-board, there have been individuals who weren’t working in the perfect pursuits of the college. And it got here to the purpose the place we needed to inform them they wanted to resign or we have been going to sue them personally. So, that was laborious ball, however these sorts of issues can occur. Workers can flip round and sue the group, actual property individuals may say that they need your land, and when you don’t deal with these belongings accurately, they’ll sue the board. So individuals might be sued, and there are dangers. Within the not-for-profit world, it tends to be much less, and most organizations do have indemnity insurance coverage in order that the administrators or trustees are lined for his or her charitable exercise.
So, often on the not-for-profit facet, the danger is much less. I wouldn’t say it’s de minimis, but it surely’s lower than it might be on the for-profit facet. On the for-profit facet, the dangers are very actual. One ought to all the time ask what the D&O, Administrators and Officers, insurance coverage is. Most individuals will say, “Don’t fear about it. We’ve received you lined.” And I often say, “I’ll be the choose of that.” And I wish to see what the language says across the indemnification, and what the boundaries of the legal responsibility are. That’s a part of the due diligence on occurring a board.
AMY BERNSTEIN: What else do you advise the ladies who come to you, they’re contemplating becoming a member of a board for the primary time, what do you inform them to look out for that they might not even concentrate on?
ELLEN ZANE: We’ve lined a whole lot of it at the moment by way of how one participates, however two issues I all the time point out to people. One is bear in mind, this isn’t nearly you, as we talked about earlier. Put your self within the sneakers of the board and take into consideration presenting your self by way of what their wants are. And it isn’t about what you need. It’s about are you able to assist them in furthering their mission. That’s one factor, to be actually cautious to not speak about your self and what you need. It is very important be capable to say what you need out of it, however at the beginning, it’s in regards to the board.
And the second factor is, be affected person. Usually, individuals who begin to consider boards are sensible individuals, they’re completed individuals. They’ve finished nicely. And generally, they don’t perceive why the board doesn’t decide about their candidacy as rapidly as they’d need them to. It’s not an invite for a job, it’s an invite for a board, and it’s completely different. Your bio ought to look completely different, your CV ought to look completely different for board seats than it does for a job. And folks have to know that boards meet each quarter or each month, and so they speak about candidates, and so they discuss in regards to the profile of what they need for the candidate, and it takes some time. And I believe clever, sensible, completed ladies get, uh, annoyed, as a result of it doesn’t occur on a timeframe as rapidly as it might for a job or as rapidly as they want.
AMY BERNSTEIN: The place do individuals be taught in regards to the bio for a board place or the resume for a board place?
ELLEN ZANE: As you already know, I do take part as program director on the Harvard Faculty of Public Well being, and what, we spend a half-a-day speaking about bios and CVs. Oftentimes, recruiters can assist you. Some recruiters will say, “Get your bio proper within the first paragraph, as a result of nobody’s going to learn past that.” It’s necessary to not be too wordy; and in your first paragraph, as a substitute of claiming how you’ll have had sure abilities for a job, to speak about what abilities you deliver to a board by way of your judgment and your savvy and your-your skill to work by means of troublesome points in a group with different board members.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, the perfect recommendation you may give is to speak to somebody who is aware of how to do that.
ELLEN ZANE: Appropriate.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Somebody who truly makes these selections for board.
ELLEN ZANE: Appropriate. I had a really, very completed particular person, who wrote a reasonably good bio, however on the finish, she wrote, “And I make the perfect brownies you’ve ever eaten.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, gosh.
ELLEN ZANE: And I stated to her, “You’ll be able to type of take that out.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
ELLEN ZANE: (chuckle) It’s simply not going to get you anyplace.
AMY BERNSTEIN: I really like canine, and I really like music…
ELLEN ZANE: Yeah, yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’ve one last query. So, you’ve reached a degree in your life once you suppose to your self, “You recognize, hey, I truly wish to sit on a board.” What’s my subsequent step? I’ve had that second of realization. What do I do?
ELLEN ZANE: Community.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Community.
ELLEN ZANE: And once more, it relies upon what sort of board you’re concerned about. If it’s a group board, one must be concerned locally so individuals know you.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
ELLEN ZANE: It’s stunning how usually connections are made by means of networking. And when you hit a board, when you get on, it’s stunning the way it materializes from there as a result of then you definately start to satisfy different individuals, individuals know individuals, and that’s the way it occurs. It’s not a science, it’s an artwork.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay. So, when you don’t like networking and also you wish to be on a board, you’d higher cope with that.
ELLEN ZANE: You’d higher cope with that, as a result of it isn’t going to fall in your lap. It’s extremely unlikely that out of the blue, you’re simply going to get a name. (chuckle) It’s often as a result of somebody is aware of you, respects you, thinks about what you may contribute, after which asks.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ellen, this has been so insightful. Thanks very, very a lot in your time and in your knowledge.
ELLEN ZANE: Nicely, thanks, and I believe it’s nice you’re doing this for ladies. It’s so necessary. So, it’s been a pleasure.
AMY BERNSTEIN: I hope we launch a whole lot of board careers with this.
ELLEN ZANE: I hope you do.
AMY BERNSTEIN: I’ll depart you now with some last ideas and phrases of encouragement from our volunteers.
LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: I believe we all the time have the—and I do know you guys have finished podcasts about imposter syndrome—like, Am I sufficient? Am I, am I prepared for this? And I believe if I might’ve waited for me to be prepared, perhaps I might’ve solely finished this a 12 months or two in the past and that, that choice might not have been there. And I wasn’t all the time excellent. You don’t need to be. You’re gonna make errors. And I didn’t really feel prepared. So, I believe simply stepping out of your consolation zone, it’s actually the place we develop.
AMBER HALL: I don’t know that I assumed that I might have the voice I may. you already know? Nevertheless it was, it’s actually fairly democratic, proper? It’s like, “Let’s hear each standpoint and perspective. There’s no hierarchy or there’s no, like, forms.” You recognize, being new to the board, I didn’t, I didn’t kind of have an expectation that I may throw my weight round from a perspective standpoint, and I’ve been in a position to try this, which is type of liberating, but additionally actually scary to be like, Oh. Nicely, I can use my voice. Oh, I might be actually vocal about that. Oh, I can problem. And I believe that’s been a extremely nice expertise for me. I believe it’s additionally helped my discover my voice professionally after I’m in rooms with related titled people, the place I’m nonetheless very junior in my profession, and I, I’ve discovered a approach to have the, have the heart and gumption to say the issues.
PATTI NEUHOLD-RAVIKUMAR: I additionally was shocked to seek out out the completely different sorts of people who find themselves serving on these boards. I anticipated that there could be lots of people who have been CEOs and presidents and plenty of necessary titled individuals at these board conferences; and I’ve to let you know they’re actually necessary individuals, however only a few of them carry huge titles. And it was good to see how many individuals have been coming from each stroll of life to care in regards to the mission of that group.
ADELLE WAPNICK: When you have a look at, at being on a board, and positively an NGO, the true factor it offers you is a way of wellbeing. I believe I underestimated that. You recognize, there’s a saying that happiness comes from giving to these, et cetera, and there’s a whole lot of literature and analysis on that. And I, I don’t suppose I’ve actually believed that, though it’s fairly a standard kind of phenomenon and idea. I didn’t notice the sense of satisfaction doing one thing like this might give me. It was solely as soon as I entered into it, however my timing was proper, and my life part was proper. I had my children have been grown up. I, my profession’s extraordinarily cycled, I’ve received the time, I’ve definitely received the capability and power.
LANI HOLLANDER: So, you probably have that for non-profit that you just’re concerned about, whether or not or not they’ve put out a name, go forward and ship them an e mail, introduce your self, and see the place it goes, as a result of it would solely go to nice locations.
AMANDA KERSEY: This episode first ran beneath the title “Ever Think about Becoming a member of a Board?”
HBR On Management will probably be again subsequent Wednesday with one other hand-picked dialog from Harvard Enterprise Overview. If this episode helped you, share it with your folks and colleagues, and observe the present on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you hearken to podcasts. When you’re there, take into account leaving us a overview.
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This episode was produced by me, Amanda Kersey. On Management’s group contains Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Music by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.
